Interview
(To protect respondents' identities, surnames are not disclosed.)

A. Magazine
December 1997

The Numbers Game and the White Boy Shuffle

GENEVIEVE: No one really takes an official poll at my film company. Of 250-300 employees, there are 2 African-Americans, 3 Asian Americans, and everyone else is white. In the creative group -- the group that decides what movies to purchase or produce -- I am the only Asian American. There are two African American women brought on primarily to serve on urban films. A lot of times the three of us feel like we have to be the voice of "equality." There are times when you'd be arguing with colleagues and say" don't you find it inherently offensive and racist?" And they'd look at you like you're from Mars! So it's a balancing act walking that fine line between understanding what will sell, making that business decision, and trying to feel comfortable with yourself at the end of the day.

ELENI: Among basic, entry-level finance professionals, there is a good population of Asians. Moving up to management level, there's much fewer. And by the time you move above VP, I've never seen any. And I'm personally worried about what happens to people of ethnicity after they hit VP. For instance, in my department of 60 people, we have no black people, and only two other Asians. At the management level, I am the only minority, and the only woman.

FRANKIE: Even in a quasi-lefty environment, like a nonprofit, everyone is still subject to misconceptions about people who look like us. When I was at a large service agency of 600, it was an unwritten policy, "If you don't know anything Asian American, ask him!" There was a handful of Asians, working in immigration, and other stuff. And as I expected, a lot of line staff people -- who do service -- are people of color. And the upper management levels were white.

URDUJAH: I want to share my personal experience on how to get promoted in the federal government. Last year there was an opening for a GS-13 level position, and I applied. There were two Asians and 10 white applicants, and the selection narrowed down to me and a white lady. I have been there longer than this lady, we both have a masters degree, we both have specialized skills. It was a shock to me, and to everybody else -- for some reason, she got the job. The problem is that there is a way to "game" the system, by tailoring the job description so it fits the person they'd like to have it, and still be within the law. I found out that the only difference between me and this lady is is that I don't participate in outreach programs as much as she does. In her specialty field her audience, the public, is readily accessible. But the technical community I need to reach is involved in direct health care services, hence, they are not readily accessible. I feel that the selection was "tailored" because the selection committee knew that my outreach program activities in my field were not as impressive as the candidate who got the job. And yet, the committee had chosen outreach activity as the deciding factor for selection.

The other thing is being stereotyped as a hardworking Asian. I've noticed over the years that I get more work than my other co-workers, two whites. This is stereotyping whereby the Asian cannot readily say no. I think my two co-workers expect me to be receptive to any kind of job they shove at me. It disturbs me.

ANAND: Do you think you get more work because you do a better job than the other guys? And have you just said "no" sometimes?

FRANKIE: I'm a little bothered by your line of questioning. That's similar to what I've heard white people ask people who say "I've been discriminated against in my job." That somehow, that's her fault, as opposed to who is funneling the work and why. I think you're right that we do have a certain amount of responsibility and power over the situation, but discrimination is never our fault.

ANAND: It's just human nature that people try to follow the path of least resistance; and to the extent that you don't give resistance, they will take advantage of you -- that's true of almost any race.

ELENI: I've had to work harder, better, faster, and perform more to get where I am, so that they have no excuse but to promote me. My firm is a hundred times worse than any other firm I've seen. It's still your true all-time traditional white boy's club. The women are the Hamptonite, New England blonde skinny girls. It's about looks and weight when you're a girl at work.

I hear jokes all the time, that aren't directly geared towards me. Like "Look at this roster of names -- it reads like the fucking U.N." Or when working late and ordering dinner, I've heard Chinese food referred to as "chink food." They think I don't hear. "We got Italian, we got chink, we got whatever." That's racism -- and I don't fight it, because I think I wouldn't have gotten far by fighting it. I went along with it, and I am, as much as you can be, a "white boy." Even the women try to be white boys.

J.D.: Does it bother you that you have to go along with it?

ELENI: It bothers me. But I've accepted that if I want to advance in my career in this field, I could fight it -- but it probably wouldn't change their minds.

URDUJAH: Do you have an employee program where you could talk about problems?

ELENI: We do. I'm required to attend diversity training with a lot of other white men. It's funny to be the minority attending it -- some white man is teaching all these other white men and me how to hire and treat everybody equally, whether they're women, black, Hispanic, or Asian. And in the end, yeah, they hire them. But they're secretaries or entry-level professionals, or just in non-threatening positions. And I practice it. As a manager, I'm in a role where, as part of a team, I hire people. When white applicants are qualified, they always get a second interview. We interview black people -- but they almost never get a second interview -- and when they do, it's cut off somewhere!

URDUJAH: The two interviews that you give whites, is that some kind of unwritten protocol?

(Laughter)

ELENI: A white person could be qualified, a black person could be equally qualified, and the white person would get a second interview. Everybody seems to have the right excuses or reasons for giving that chance or not -- like, "It was a wrong fit".

GENEVIEVE: You have to be more white than white people! At my company, what made our first financial African-American executive so "hireable" is that he's from Orange County, an Ivy League graduate, and talking to him on the phone, you'd swear you're talking to Lawrence Welk! People meet him, and they do a double take. Similarly, for me, I interact with a lot of people on the phone. If you're not familiar with Asian last names, you wouldn't know my ethnicity, and I don't have an accent. I can certainly play that Valley girl thing to the hilt -- which helps in my business -- and I've had people call and assume I was some blonde surfer girl from L.A. They have no idea!

J.D. (to ANAND): A lot of people have talked about "playing the white boys' game" or "acting white." How much of that do you think plays into who's hired and who's promoted at your law firm?

ANAND: I definitely think law firms -- at least these white-shoe firms -- are looking to convey an image to clients and to each other. You can call it "white" or whatever you want, but the image is: nice suit, pressed shirt, a tie, black leather shoes. If you look a little bit odd, you're not going to fit in. They may be looking for different races -- but also ones that fit into a particular corporate mold.That's what they think clients expect -- and what they're comfortable with -- although I don't think white people have the monopoly on suits and ties.

JD: If you want to stay there and be partner, can you just do what you're doing now to get there? Eleni said that she can't be herself.

ANAND: I got a leave of absence to go to India on a pilgrimage, and wound up getting my head shaved, and I came back completely bald. That's not something you do if you're interested in advancing in the corporate world. I don't think what I'm doing now will get me to partner, just because I'm not willing to make the sacrifices necessary for the firm. I'm not sure that has to with me being Asian per se.

GARY: I had a question about the "white boy club" versus being yourself. If we're actually talking about abandoning our culture in the workplace to get ahead, I believe we actually started a long time ago -- as a kid -- to be socially accepted while growing up, to get into Stanford or Yale Law School, to get that dream job. The role-playing probably started well before entering the work force. I play the white boy game at work, but it's certainly not any different from my behavior outside of the office.

ELENI: I notice that I live two different lives. There's a very Chinese side of me, that doesn't touch work at all. What seems normal for us -- going down to Chinatown, eating in a loud Chinese restaurant and gettin' down and eatin' seafood with chopsticks -- that's not a part of my professional life. My colleagues would be appalled! They're white, so what I do with them is a completely different life than hanging out with my Asian friends -- I feel it's a double life. It always has to be one or the other. For instance, I had a Christmas party and I didn't know who to invite, because I was afraid to bring them together!

JD: In the best of all worlds, would you change so that you could integrate them?

ELENI: Yeah, but I can't picture it.

JD (to GENEVIEVE): So being an Asian American woman in this field, that's not a problem?

GENEVIEVE: It's a double-edged sword. Hong Kong films are really hot. It's an advantage for me because I have the language skills. For a while, I was resisting it, "No, 1 don't want to be pigeon-holed into Hong Kong films." But someone hit me over the head and said "Are you stupid? This is something you can just jump right into. Go for it." But it also hinders, because then I get the dumbest, most trivial questions!

FRANKIE: I'm at a point in my life now where I'm really sick of "dancing to whitey's tune." With my politics, how I live, I'm trying to make it all one thing. For me, I decided to work for this API organization, so that I can pay my bills working for something that A) is worthwhile B) addresses not only our people, but people who have class, race, language issues, compounded by serious health problems. I can't imagine where else I'd want to be.

My father and my mother and the generations before us really paid in blood so I could go to college. They fought so I could have these opportunities. So I feel that if I don't make any headway and try to fight, if my kids have to go through the same thing that I did, then I didn't do my job.

JD: So what you're doing now enables you to have that integration and be yourself.

FRANKIE: When progressive white people ask "what can I do in the struggle?" I always say "well when you hear a white person say something fucked up, tell them that it's fucked up!" Unless I'm at the receiving end of it, I don't want to waste my time with that. That's not my job anymore.

GARY: We keep using thewords " discriminated against" and I don't think I've been a victim of that. I don't feel like my career has been held back because management sees me as an Asian American. I know I've been tokenized -- but I never felt like it was mean-spirited. I've had very high-ranking executives make jokes to my face about my ethnic background, like "here comes yellow fever" or gesturing with bowing and martial arts-like moves. But it's always been friendly, I guess.

J.D.: It doesn't bother you?

GARY: I'm a little taken aback that somebody of that stature would choose to behave with what I consider ignorance. But as a subordinate, I'm not really in a position to come back and say, "you're out of line."

J.D.: Have you ever felt being tokenized?

GARY: When I first started out, my company was pitching a Japanese account. They were quick to get me in a suit, take my picture, and put my photo on the organizational chart presented to the client. It was an obvious attempt to show me off -- personnel below mid-level management had never been presented that way before.

J.D.: There's a fine line between being a token -- and where you actually become the valuable player. Without you, they're in deep trouble -- because they need you. On the other hand, your picture's up there so they'll think that they're diverse, "and while we're at it, let's get a picture of a woman and a black person and a Latino too."

URDUJAH: Affirmative action is good for entry-level, or in the initial hiring process. But once you're in the organization, how you are promoted or advanced is another matter. I feel that minorities are there to show that the quota has been met. Where I am at now, there are a number of us minorities at the GS- 12 level. But there are less than a handful at the GS- 13 level, and none at the GS- 14 or 15 level.

J.D.: Why do you think it's like that?

URDUJAH: A lot of employees have been there for years. To reward them, the management has to manipulate the job description to promote those employees to higher levels. And those I personally see being promoted are not minorities, even though minorities have tried in vain to compete. Also, by identifying a job as a temporary position, you can put anybody in there that you want, and once that particular person is in that position, you can convert it into a permanent position.

There was another job opening I reluctantly applied for, because we already knew who the "favored" candidate was. I have been informally advised by colleagues to apply, even though my chance was slim. If I have some sort of track record showing that I've applied for several jobs which I am qualified for-but still denied the opportunity to advance-I would have a chance to seek grievances eventually. Unfortunately, the "favored" candidate suddenly passed away. Do you know what happened to the job opening? They canceled it! I'd like to accept management's explanation on why it was canceled, but I wasn't buying.

FRANKIE: That speaks to how advanced racism has become. Look how calculated that is -- to tailor a job description when you know who you want to have it. That's also why I want to be in an API agency. This is the first time I've been in a work position that I've actually thought of staying in beyond two or three years. I think we just have to create our own opportunities -- this goes for film, for everything. I think Bruce Lee said that -- "I don't wait for opportunity to knock on my door. To hell with that, I create it."

J.D.: Are you talking about creating opportunities within the Asian Pacific community, or in the mainstream, or both?

FRANKIE: Primarily in the Asian Pacific community -- and it overlaps with the mainstream. My agency's funding comes from city, state, federal government, but it's focused very much on the API community. I'm not seclusionist or isolationist, but I think we have to take more control in setting the terms we want to work with.

The Question of Power

J.D.: Let me ask, if we had Asians in key power positions, does that become a problem for other Asians?

URDUJAH: There's a disadvantage if you have people in the higher level of your same ethnic background -- because of that perception of preferential treatment. If I were to interview employees, I would be very careful to even choose Asian applicants. My administrator was African American, and I have a feeling that a lot of African American employees were not really advancing -- because he would be perceived as preferring his own ethnic group for advancement.

ELENI: Actually, in my staff, there is an Asian girl. I am reluctant to promote her. They think I favor her, and to be honest, I think I do -- I baby her a bit, because I want to see her do well. So, I may throw her up for a promotion, but when we make the decision, I would be hesitant to be a strong advocate.

ANAND: You're reluctant because of her race? And your race?

ELENI: Actually she's Korean. But in their eyes it's all the same.

J.D.: Do you know what the old boys' network is?

FRANKIE: People hire.their sons and nephews and friends of friends -- this very nepotism kind of thing.

ANAND: They would have stuck up for their boy.

J.D.: You wouldn't be doing anything different than what these other people are already doing.

ELENI: Earlier Frankie was saying that he didn't get anywhere if our kids have to go through the same shit that we have to. But I also want to advance professionally. There are other ways to fight. For me, I volunteer in a big-brother/big-sister program for inner-city Asian American youth -- which people at work don't know about. I've gotten funding from my company -- which people in my department also don't know about. The company on my behalf donated a pretty large sum, allowing the inner-city Asian American kids to go to camp. Maybe it's a silent little thing, but that is my way. By being a mentor to an Asian inner-city youth -- I believe that if we don't watch out for our own, who will?

J.D.: Okay, but then why can't you translate that to work? Is that a problem?

ELENI: I think I do I just do it silently. Like I said I watch out for the Asian girl at work, just quietly.

GENEVIEVE: There are some very powerful Asian Americans "up there" in this industry -- they never helped me out. I think they're probably afraid, because they feel like it'll politicize them too much to their company.

J.D.: Because they don't think of themselves as Asian, or they don't care about you, or is it not the way the industry works?

GENEVIEVE: My God, entertainment is the most nepotistic favoritistic industry in the world!

What About Affirmative Action?

J.D.: Does affirmative action mean anything in any of the industries you work in?

GENEVIEVE: Absolutely nothing. Our company never had a program, never had a diversity training, never had any kind of outreach, nothing. They don't care.

URDUJAH: The government is a big proponent of affirmative action, since it's regulation. But I feel that the real intent of affirmative action, in terms of promotion and/or equal opportunities, is not observed or followed. There are programs to develop employees -- mentoring, cultural diversity, educational enhancement, employee services, etc. But there are ways to "game" the merit system that make affirmative action ineffective. My experience with trying to gain higher positions speaks for itself.

J.D.: Affirmative action is supposed to work for promotions too. Hearing from you, it obviously is not working.

URDUJAH: I don't think so -- as long as there are ways to cheat the system, and the government is decentralized. Each region has a different way of interpreting affirmative action. So it's good for entry-level, but once you're inside, you're on your own.

GARY: I think affirmative action has meaning in education, and admissions -- but not in the work place. I do believe the government has a responsibility to even out the playing field for kids who want to go to college but haven't had similar educational opportunities as others. But private businesses should be left alone by the government -- they should be able to hire anyone they feel will strengthen their business. Because the objective of affirmative action seems to be simply to meet head count quotas, the real problem -- ignorance -- is not addressed. It needs to be revamped so businesses encourage a diverse workforce to share their ideas, and that these ideas benefit not only the employees, but the company -- particularly its bottom line.

J.D.: Affirmative action is something very specific -- it only applies to minorities and women -- it's leveling the playing field. Now, "diversity" is something which has gone beyond affirmative action; an extension which encompasses a much broader range of folks.

GARY: My last client, a state government agency, made a pretty good effort to develop and implement an affirmative action plan. It was probably prompted by the Texaco incident, but whatever the reason, they did gather minorities from several departments, encourage an open forum, and meet on a regular basis to address the problem of diversity. l believe the voices were heard and taken seriously.

J.D.: Affirmative action for many people has the negative connotations you talked about: the head count, the quotas, the unqualified people and all kinds of stuff.

FRANKIE: The right-wing's really succeeded in corrupting the original purposes of these things. And affirmative action, they've really reduced to "it's just a head count, it's a quota system," and unfortunately a lot of ways it's played out, it IS that way. It's not that affirmative action doesn't work -- it's just that depending on how they're using it, who's hiring who -- and WHY are they hiring -- that's where the problem is. A lot of people say it's a band-aid -- and there's something to that argument. But without it, we'd be a hell of a lot worse off. Getting back to affirmative action, you have to attack where it is, site by site. It's how it's being used, how it's being corrupted, that's messed up. Unfortunately now, it even seems like it's supposed to work for promotions, now, you can barely get in the door, and when you do, it's the same old bullshit.

J.D.: Would any of you be really upset if you found out you were an affirmative action hire?

FRANKIE: No way.

GENEVIEVE: Not me.

ELENI: I'd be really happy. Because I think I would be a case where it worked. Because I got in the door and advanced. Being in investment banking, I see how affirmative action is just "diversity training" -- and I think that's a mandatory eight hours so we don't get sued!

ANAND: I would feel disappointed. I can't say that I've never been the beneficiary of it, but no one's ever told me. I certainly wouldn't kill myself. I know I've been helped out along the way by various people, but I'd like to think that what I've done is not based on some system designed to count me.

FRANKIE: But as an individual you know that you could do this job. You wouldn't have applied for the job unless you felt like you met the qualifications somehow.

ANAND: You're right. Once you get there, once you feel like you can do the job, it may not matter to you as much how you got there, whether by luck, or by racial happenstance. I guess I just wouldn't be happy.

GARY: It would bother me. It's a matter of pride. Like Anand, I'm also arrogant enough to think I've always gotten jobs on the basis of my ability alone. I would probably consider quitting if I found out that I was hired based on meeting an affirmative action quota.

J.D.: For some people, the old boys' network is just a corrupt form of affirmative action. A lot of people feel that within the old boys' network, some people who get promoted are not qualified. But obviously, affirmative action, people are not comfortable with that. What about " diversity?" Is that better?

URDUJAH: I had to go to the personnel department and ask if we had a diversity program! I said "when was the last time we had this?" They said "about two years ago." I didn't remember it!

(Laughter)

URDUJAH: I asked someone about the agenda of the "cultural diversity" meeting, and was informed that there were no specific issues on "sensitivity training" dealing with various ethnic groups. But the government is very concerned that employees observe certain ethical standards as "public servants."

ANAND: I know that the bar association and some other national associations have set goals for hiring amongst minorities, that the law firms are trying to meet. I don't know if they've been too successful. We haven't had diversity trainings here, but other law firms that I've been at did. I think a large part is to avoid being sued -- they can say "we did try to sensitize people about sexual harassment, racial discrimination; we made an effort and we can't mind-control people, so what happened happened." But some of those firms actually did feel like they wanted to hire more Asian Americans, hire more African Americans. I think some people are more sincere about it.

FRANKIE: In non-profits, it's a very big thing. I don't know how many diversity trainings I've been to. But, if there's someone who doesn't want to be at that training, they can completely sabotage any learning process that's gonna happen for anybody else.

ELENI: For us diversity training is mandatory for anybody who is at the management level. They harass until you go.

FRANKIE: Is there a lot of resistance from the other guys?

ELENI: No one wants to go. To be fair, it's because you lose a day. But they set the tone by saying "I realize that some of you are hostages to this." Then they spend eight hours, in a roundabout way, saying "well, we have to deal with a lot of different kinds of us; different weights, ages, hair color, looks" -- because at my company, we have very few fat people -- "We have to deal with everybody, so just be sensitive to not say things in front of them that will offend them." In our training, the instructor mentioned EVERYTHING BUT Asian! He mentioned black, Latino, Puerto Rican, Native American, fat people, old people, ugly people, handicapped people, blind people -- everything -- no Asians! And I was sitting in that room.

J.D.: Why do you think that was?

ELENI: I think we're invisible to them! I felt invisible. And in the beginning, at the introductions, I even offered that "yeah, it's been hard being Asian in this firm."

J.D.: Were you the only Asian in the training?

ELENI: Yes. I was honest -- and I was ignored. Not meanly -- but they just didn't address Asian issues. I think it was because I was in the room.

ANAND: I think that most of the country sees race relations as being black/white, not brown or different skin colors

FRANKIE: Latinos often get lumped in with Blacks. Asians -- and this is very problematic and we need to challenge more -- often get lumped with whites. With Blacks and Latinos, there's a joke I heard that broke my heart: they call us "the other white meat." That's NOT good! (laughter) Unfortunately, I think that's largely how we're seen. Part of how 1 overcompensate is, whatever the social stigmas about being an Asian male, I make sure that I'm hyper-aggressive and loud! And because I've done diversity trainings, one of the points I try to make is that one day or a couple of hours isn't gonna do it -- so always try to encourage people to continue dialogue outside of this room. Otherwise it's pointless -- and you come in here and all you did was lose a day.

J.D.: Obviously, with affirmative action and diversity, we're trying to remedy problems. And I hear from all of you that in some places, it's not even addressed. And in other places, it's not working.

FRANKIE: I should say that in the non-profit world, at least a lot of people who attend really are trying to open their minds. There's less resistance than I've seen in corporate settings

J.D.: But do you all agree that there are problems at work? Is there racism going on? Or are things like affirmative action and diversity a waste of time?

ELENI: Well, Genevieve said there just aren't enough Asians in the entertainment industry. I think in order for us to even have awareness about the problems at work, there needs to be enough of us AT work! So you may feel like there's a problem -- but you're the only one!

J.D.: So you think it's matter of numbers?

ELENI: I think you need at least a few people to get it started.

J.D.: But let me give you some examples. We started to do diversity training ten years ago at TRW. One-third of their professional staff was Asian Pacific Americans. They had no one above the director level and yet one-third of their workforce was Asian Pacific. So I'm not sure if numbers is the only thing.

ANAND: I'm not a believer in affirmative action at all. As far as the public sector goes, I don't think there should be anyone asking what race you are, having you fill out a form or anything like that. I think they should use as little racial identification as possible. As far as private employers go, I think they can just do whatever they want. If they want to have affirmative action that's fine. If an Indian restaurant wants to hire all Indians, if a Korean grocery store wants to hire all Koreans, I don't see anything wrong with that. If a white investment bank wants to hire all whites, that's fine too.

J.D.: So you're in favor of a total segregated society if that's what it boils down to?

ANAND: I don't think it's a good idea to exclude people on the basis of race for hiring, but I'm not going to tell someone -- a Korean grocery store or an Indian restaurant owner -- that he has to hire someone of another race just because the government thinks it's a good idea to have people of different backgrounds working at a grocery store, at a speaker company like Bose, or a computer company like Wang.

J.D.: So qualifications in your system would have no place because it's purely a matter of race?

ANAND: I don't think we can tell people that you have to choose the best person for the job, because then you wouldn't have families hiring their children to work. People should just be able to hire whomever they want to -- except the government, where you shouldn't be able to discriminate on race at all.

FRANKIE: Your system really takes for granted that there's a level playing field already. There's a difference in terms of a Korean hiring Koreans in their deli. They're doing it for survival, and because they want to give another Korean person a job. Whereas with an investment banker, the amount of power that's wielded is completely incomparable.

ANAND: I completely agree with you. I don't deny that -- I would just say I don't see why it's okay to give the break to the Korean guy but it's not okay to give a break to a white guy.

J.D.: Because the white guy's already got breaks lined up for him.

ELENI: And the white guy's dad runs the investment bank! The Korean has the choice of being a grocery store owner like Dad and if he wants to be an investment banker, he needs to have a foot in the door. With the picture that you paint, all Indians are owning restaurants, all Koreans are running grocery stores, and Chinese people are doing laundry. What about the Chinese or Korean who wants to run the investment bank?

ANAND: Well I mentioned Bose speakers. Look, Jewish people were tired of being shut out of law firms, and they just opened their own. They found a way to survive and overcome. I don't want to go to some place where I'm not wanted, where they have to hire me because they want to meet some jellybean counters' fantasy world of five blueberries and three licorice.

J.D.: (to ANAND): What about protesting a company that doesn't hire Asians?

ANAND: There's nothing wrong with that. You should protest whatever you want to. I'm just saying I don't think it's the government's place to tell anyone who they have to hire. I don't buy the notion that a small business owner has more freedom to do what he wants than the owners of the big business. I personally wouldn't want to work at a place where I felt like they were just counting beans. I'd much rather know that they don't want to hire Asians. You can see that when they're not being forced to by some law and they're just not relegating people to some back water department just to satisfy some bean counter's fantasy.

GENEVIEVE: I will agree with Anand that in the private sector, ultimately it doesn't matter what color you are. It's the green that matters. If you make profit for the company, you can go there and you can demand almost anything.

J.D.: So if an Asian in entertainment could do those things, then they would be up there?

ANAND: I think what she's saying is that companies want to make money and they'll do it with anyone who can take them there. On the margin, perhaps being a minority makes a difference; but I think the dominant motivating factor is money. If you're Michael Jackson and you're Blacker if you're Bruce Lee, eventually you can hit the top and you're going to make money too.

FRANKIE: But Bruce Lee, he went through a tremendous amount of crap. He was driven enough to go challenge Hollywood racism, and demand to work on his own terms. That's why he had such a hard time. He's quoted as saying "I don't want to do these chingchong roles." He always set parameters.

Making Change

J.D.: So what are we going to do? Anand threw out on the table what he thinks needs to happen.

GARY: American business is driven primarily by making money, not doing what's right. While I strongly believe that government doesn't have the right to tell a private company how to hire employees, I do think companies are better off with a diverse workforce. Companies need to come to this conclusion on their own. At my last job, there was an effort to bring in more minorities -- and I think the company benefited, but perhaps more importantly, the work it did for its clients benefited from having a more diverse work force.

J.D.: Yeah, because affirmative action is regulated but diversity is not. Some people say they want to do diversity because it's not regulated.

FRANKIE (to ANAND): I agree with you in that we need to take more initiative creating our own opportunities. My agency was founded because government and other agencies providing services were not scratching the itch that Asian Americans and Asian immigrant communities particularly had. I think that's largely where we need to move -- setting up our own institutions where we can be in those positions to make those key decisions

J.D.: So you're advocating more of a separatist approach?

FRANKIE: Things need to happen simultaneously. That's a key component; but I want to focus my energy on more Asian American autonomy.

TAMINA DAVAR, workplace editor:. Many of you spoke about being one of few Asians in your workplace. And even though Asian Americans are underrepresented in all but a few industries, there's a general perception that we're well-represented in every industry. Even if, as Eleni pointed out, in finance, most of us are at entry-levels. So what would you say to someone who said, "What are you so uptight about? There's already too many of you Asians here in this industry?"

ELENI: Before I came to work, I had that perception as well -- because the quality schools produce a lot of good undergraduate people who have degrees for business. But now that I'm here for a couple of years, I don't know where they all went! When we were graduating, we all had job offers.

J.D.: Where do you think the disconnect is?

ELENI: I think they got in the door at entry-level. And I find that a lot of Asians starting out in the financial industry don't fit into that "white-boy" image; they don't play that game well. So I see more people leaving. Of my friends from college, I'm among the few left.

TAMINA: Has management noticed that so many Asians have left?

FRANKIE: Do they care?

ELENI: No. But I noticed it -- because it affects my life! It affects my friends. And also because when we get together socially, I hear how much discomfort is felt by them -- especially Asian men. I feel for them. Not only do they not fit in, they are excluded. I suppose, being a woman, you're a little less threatening -- because you're never gonna fit in so it doesn't really matter. They can at least let you in.

FRANKIE: They just want to date you!

ELENI: Yeah, they want to date you! But with the Asian male, I see SO much discrimination against them -- that they get angry -- and don't know what to do about it -- so they leave. I've seen that among a lot of friends.

TAMINA: What would you change in your company or an industry, given this massive Asian American exodus that no one else seems to notice?

ELENI: Mind frames of upper management need to change. But in my mind, it's asking the impossible. They're white. They're brought up a certain way. And to ask them to broaden their horizons is difficult. One way is to get us in those entry-level positions and let them have contact with more Asians -- we're gonna be a little more accepted. But I don't know if any diversity training will actually change their minds, or even enlighten them in some way.

FRANKIE: I think you have to concentrate on young people. Some of the best diversity work I've clone has been with the youth because they don't have the hang-ups of that 50 or 60 year old white dude who's been living the good life. You're trying to retain and develop young people, so they don't have to go through the same shit we do.

GENEVIEVE: I do want to help Asian American youth. But you need to make more dollars to give dollars to the community.

FRANKIE: I feel if you allow others to define your worth -- feeling shame about being an affirmative action hire -- you need to ask yourself some serious questions about where you get your sense of worth. If you need approval from white mainstream society, just turn on the TV, or see a movie, and you'll see exactly what they think of us.